TerriK Relates Her Birth Certificate Research; a Picture of Governmental Cynicism & Evasion of Constitution

The following is essentially represented as originally published by TerriK, i.e., by and in Miss Tickly's Question 'O'thority.

OUR WORST NIGHTMARE CONFIRMED:
Obama’s COLB Lacks Legal Veracity.
What Now?
10/04/2009

By MissTickly (aka ‘TerriK’)

On July 27, 2009, Obama was not verified as ‘Constitutionally Qualified to be U.S. President’ by the standards of Hawaii’s Department of Health and Vital Statistics Registrar. Any assertions by Nancy Pelosi or anyone else must be reexamined under the following LIGHT:

THE KEY: ‘FILED by Local Registrar’ vs. ‘ACCEPTED by State Registrar’

We have two statements about two sets of vital records belonging to the President issued from Hawaii. An “original birth certificate” that is “on record in accordance to state policies and procedures” in October, 2008, AND “original vital records” that are “maintained on file,” on July 27, 2009.

1.) Dr. Fukino, Director of the Department of Health on Oct. 31, 2008:

“Therefore, I as Director of Health for the State of Hawai‘i, along with the Registrar of Vital Statistics who has statutory authority to oversee and maintain these type of vital records, have personally seen and verified that the Hawai‘i State Department of Health has Sen. Obama’s original birth certificate on record in accordance with state policies and procedures.”

2.) Dr. Fukino, Director of the Department of Health on July 27, 2009:

“I, Dr. Chiyome Fukino, Director of the Hawaii State Department of Health, have seen the original vital records maintained on file by the Hawai‘i State Department of Health verifying Barack Hussein Obama was born in Hawai‘i and is a natural-born American citizen. I have nothing further to add to this statement or my original statement issued in October 2008 over eight months ago.”

• We also have a COLB presented by President Obama that indicates the information shown has been ‘Filed by Registrar.’ Fig.1 (see below)

• However, we also have samples found online of HAWAII COLBs that say they have been ‘Accepted by State Registrar.’ Fig 2 & Fig 3 (see below)

MOVING ON WITHOUT HAWAII’S HELP

Hawaii refuses to answer simple procedural questions. Using Nevada’s guidelines on vital statistics, we can reasonably discern the validity of President Obama’s COLB online and the “vital records” used to help verify his is a “natural-born” American citizen and “born in Hawaii.”

In viewing the U.S. Vital Statistics System found here: http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/misc/usvss.pdf (pp.62-63), we can see that there began a distinct effort to establish uniform practices of recording Vital Statistic information in all states.

Budget Bureau’s recommendations in 1943:

“Instead it proposed the creation of a cooperative vital records system, comprising the existing State and independent city vital statistics offices and a national office to ‘‘represent and serve the system from a Federal standpoint, and, by making available financial and technical aid, would work to improve, develop, and integrate the individual units of the system.’’ It called for a program of continuous allotment of money to the present State, city, and Territorial offices to be spent for correcting defects in the registration system and for expansion as required.”

Using the state of Nevada’s clearly posted procedures AND policies as a guideline, we can conclude that President Obama is not ‘constitutionally qualified’ to be U.S. President with the information found on his original birth certificate. AND the information he submitted to the state, to support any changes, was still pending approval on 7/27/09 and therefore insufficient to verify anything legal…like birth place and natural born citizenship–which happens at birth and those facts are static.

Birth place can arguably never really be amended once recorded the first time. Proof was offered at birth in order for the State Registrar to record it originally….unless it was left blank at birth...or perhaps the President has an *ahem* ‘clerical error’ on his original birth certificate.

This is highly irregular, no?

IF THE U.S. HAS STANDARDIZED MUCH OF THE POLICY AND PROCEDURES FOR RECORDING VITAL STATISTIC RECORDS LIKE THE U.S. VITAL STATISTICS SYSTEM INDICATES, THEN WE DON’T EVEN NEED HAWAII TO ANSWER OUR SIMPLE REASONABLE QUESTIONS.

Not really anyway. Only a FOOL would argue otherwise at this point. A paid or unpaid FOOL:

• What does the phrase “on record in accordance with state policies and procedures” mean in the October Statement referencing the President’s original birth certificate?

• What does the phrase “maintained on file” mean in the July Statement referencing the vital records verifying his birth place and “natural-born” American citizenship status?

• What does a ‘Filed by Registrar’ COLB indicate?

• What does an ‘Accepted by State Registrar’ COLB indicate?

We can conclude from Fukino’s use of the phrase “maintained on file” which refers to the vital records “verifying Barack Hussein Obama was born in Hawai‘i and is a natural-born American citizen,” the state had not recorded and indexed the information verifying the facts within. We can conclude that the State of Hawaii was unsatisfied on July 27, 2009 of those facts.

THIS IS SIMPLY OUTRAGEOUS. BREATHTAKINGLY STUPID. IT’S RECKLESS. IT’S UNBELIEVABLE.

Excuse me? It is just beyond words.

I cannot imagine a worse scenario emerging from all of this. Can you?

And when the State issued his COLB that states ‘Filed by Registrar,’ in 2007, we can conclude that the evidence submitted to them of the ‘proof of the facts stated within the COLB’ was insufficient, at least at that time, to warrant recording on permanent state record with the Registrar.

To preface the following, please read Leo Donofrio’s account of my experience that yielded two types of admissions by the State of Hawaii’s Department of Health, that an amendment &/or correction to the President’s Birth Record was pending on July 27.

• ‘Foreshadowing’ (first indication of admission)

• ‘TerriK Investigation: Part 2′ (statutory admission)

The following ‘vital records policy and procedural information’ from Nevada also seems to indicate, an amendment was pending OR INITIATED when the President was issued his 2007 COLB. I suspect similar policies are in place in Hawaii. We just can get to it. We can’t ask…or at least they won’t answer. And they won’t tell us where to find the answer.

Staff at the Hawaii DoH do not want people to know how to read the legal documents they issue AND they don’t want to explain what their statements to the public really mean.

FIRST you mix the dough, THEN you bake it: there is a TWO STEP PATH to issuing legitimate, registered birth certificates in Nevada. There are two sets of obstacles which an ‘application to file for’ and an ‘application to file for an amendment of information’ must clear. The second involves providing PROOF of facts.

Amazingly, President Obama’s online COLB never got that far when it was issued in 2007.

UNLESS BOTH STEPS ARE COMPLETED, THE STATE DECLARES THE FILED APPLICATION OR AN APPLICATION TO AMEND HAS ‘INSUFFICIENT PROOF’ TO SUPPORT THE INFORMATION FOUND WITHIN.

An application can be dismissed for lack of evidence after a period of time, or a person can submit evidence to be reviewed and accepted in the SECOND STEP. In the interim, the state makes no claim that the Birth Certificate ON FILE has been found sufficient on a state registrar level. AND they should clearly state so on the Certificate if this is the case.

They do. Now we all know–it’s been in front of our faces all along.

FIRST STEP IN FILING AND REGISTERING A BIRTH IN NEVADA IS AT THE LOCAL ADMINISTRATION LEVEL:

http://www.leg.state.nv.us/nrs/NRS-440.html

LOCAL ADMINISTRATION
NRS 440.190 County health officer as registrar.
NRS 440.200 Furnishing blank certificates. [It's likely that President Obama filled out a blank certificate or form supplied by the state to local officials in order to file for an amendment to his birth information.]
NRS 440.210 Certificates of birth and death: Examination by local health officer.
NRS 440.220 Certificates of birth and death: Enforcement of requirements by local health officer.
NRS 440.230 Certificates of birth and death: Numbering; attestation of date of filing by local health officer.
NRS 440.240 Certificates of birth and death: Preservation of copies by local health officer.
NRS 440.250 Certificates of birth and death: Filing by deputy county health officer; filing of list of deceased persons with public administrator.
NRS 440.260 Certificates of birth and death: Time for delivery to State Registrar.

[NOTE: UPON COMPLETION OF THE FIRST STEP, THE FILED ‘APPLICATION CERTIFICATE’ IS SENT TO THE STATE REGISTRAR FOR THE REQUIRED APPROVAL.]
.
PLEASE ALSO TAKE SPECIAL NOTE OF THE FOLLOWING LANGUAGE (TERMINOLOGY) WHICH INDICATES THE PROCEDURES COMPLETED WHEN PRESIDENT OBAMA WAS ISSUED HIS COLB POSTED ONLINE:

“NRS 440.230 …..Filing by deputy county health officer”

• Now add it to this:

“NRS 440.190 County health officer as registrar.“

• Translation: “Filed by Registrar” which is what the President’s online COLB states clearly.

President Obama’s online COLB says ‘FILED BY REGISTRAR.’ The information on the President’s COLB represents information he furnished the local registrar in an application to amend his vital record information. He furnished this info likely on a blank certificate or form supplied by the local registrar. Fukino’s statement in October 2008, indicates that an original birth certificate already existed ‘on record in accordance to state policy and procedure.’ The vital records she refers to on July 27, 2009, “verifying” the President is a ‘natural-Born’ American citizen and born in Hawaii are only “maintained on file,” therefore they cannot possibly be “on record with the State Registrar:”

Fig 1

SECOND STEP IN FILING AND REGISTERING A BIRTH IN NEVADA IS AT THE STATE ADMINISTRATION LEVEL:

THIS STEP MUST BE COMPLETED FOR A BIRTH CERTIFICATE OR INFORMATION BEING AMENDED WITHIN A BIRTH CERTIFICATE TO BE FOUND VALID OR LEGAL PROOF.
http://www.leg.state.nv.us/nrs/NRS-440.html

If the records that verified our president was born in Hawai’i and is a “natural-born American citizen” did not complete or end at state level registration through STEP TWO, those records are completely empty and unfounded for all legal purposes.

STATE ADMINISTRATION
NRS 440.110 State Registrar of Vital Statistics.
NRS 440.120 Regulations of State Board of Health concerning registration; enforcement by State Registrar. [NOTE: This never happened for the President's online COLB, so the info found on it is NOT LEGAL.]
NRS 440.130 Preparation and distribution of forms and blanks; charge for blank certificate.
NRS 440.135 Form for reporting divorce or annulment of marriage: Preparation; contents; distribution.
NRS 440.140 Preparation and issuance of instructions; use of other forms and blanks prohibited.
NRS 440.150 Examination and supplementation of certificates. (See below)
NRS 440.160 Preservation and indexing of certificates. [Any pending application has not been indexed. Therefore, the index data won't show the whole picture. Perhaps, not even for Maya.]
NRS 440.165 Reproduction of original records and files.
NRS 440.170 Records open to inspection; use of data restricted.
NRS 440.175 Furnishing statistical data; limitation on preparation or issuance of certain documents; charging fees to homeless persons prohibited; remittance required for issuing copies.

Obama has an incomplete and unsatisfactory COLB if indications from Nevada policy are true:

“NRS 440.150 EXAMINATION AND SUPPLEMENTATION OF CERTIFICATES. THE STATE REGISTRAR SHALL CAREFULLY EXAMINE THE CERTIFICATES RECEIVED FROM THE LOCAL HEALTH OFFICERS, AND IF THEY ARE INCOMPLETE OR UNSATISFACTORY HE SHALL REQUIRE SUCH FURTHER INFORMATION TO BE FURNISHED AS MAY BE NECESSARY TO MAKE THE RECORD COMPLETE AND SATISFACTORY.”

In other words, The State Registrar says, “Something stinks here and I ain’t puttin’ any of it on record.”

“COMPLETED RECORDS” – MEANING ONE WHERE ENOUGH EVIDENCE HAS BEEN COLLECTED, REVIEWED AND ACCEPTED, PER POLICY AND PROCEDURE, TO RECORD THE VITAL STATISTICS WITH THE STATE REGISTRAR.

IT IS AT THIS POINT THAT A FILED CERTIFICATE APPLICATION OF ANY KIND HAS BEEN ‘ACCEPTED BY THE STATE REGISTRAR.’

It is now “ON RECORD IN ACCORDANCE TO STATE POLICY AND PROCEDURE.”

Fig 2

OR the application for an amended certificate has been ‘accepted by the state registrar.’

Fig 3

Once the President’s filed application to amend his Birth Certificate was accepted by the State Registrar, the amended information would be pulled out, noted and endorsed as in Fig 3 above. It’s impossible to tell by looking at the President’s COLB, which information is to be amended until after it’s accepted. In fact, the notation that President Obama’s COLB is ‘Filed by Registrar’ indicates the state stands by NONE of the information found on the document.

HAWAII STATE REGISTRAR OFFICIALS ISSUED PRESIDENT OBAMA’S ONLINE COLB IF NEVADA SERVES AS AN ACCURATE COMPARISON:

“NRS 440.165 Reproduction of original records and files. To preserve original documents, the State Registrar is authorized to prepare typewritten, photographic or other reproductions of original records and files in his office. (Added to NRS by 1967, 1108; A 1971, 808)”

“…reproductions of original records and files…“

PRESIDENT OBAMA’S COLB IS A REPRODUCTION OF A ‘FILE.’

President Obama has a ‘reproduction of a FILE’ while other samples of Hawaiian COLBs found online are ‘reproductions of RECORDS’ that have been accepted and therefore completed with the State Registrar using the support of sufficient evidence required by the state to register the Birth Certificate on record.

Fig 2 and Fig 3 (above) have been validated and are found satisfactory to the standards of state policy. These type are accepted, recorded and indexed by the State Registrar.

DISTRACTIONS, ROADBLOCKERS AND SMOKESCREENS

While conducting my investigation I encountered a FReeper that pointed me to her own alleged Hawaii COLB which she provided to ‘Polarik’ for use in comparing to the President’s COLB. In Leo Donofrio’s blog post, Foreshadowing, he mentions a comment left to me by ‘Polarik’ on August 4, 2009 at FreeRepublic. That comment indicates that ‘Polarik’ thinks I am making the story up about receiving the Press Release pdf from Janice Okubo in Hawaii on July 27, 2009.

HOWEVER, I received confirmation from ‘Polarik’ that he received the press release pdf sent to me by Okubo when I sent it to him, myself, on August 3, 2009: the day BEFORE he left that comment. He confirmed to me on August 3, 2009, that he got the pdf and he thanked me for sending him a download link. I won’t post his private message but I assert that it happened to the best of my understanding.

Why would he then try to discredit me on a post I left on FR, entitled “Orly is Working for Obama?” His thuggish attempts to use sexism to paint me as ‘unstable’ bear a stark resemblance to the tactics used on the left against Hillary Clinton and Sarah Palin.

(http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-chat/2308045/posts?q=1&;page=51)

“There was NO PRESS RELEASE. It was a direct statement made to Dan Nagaso of the Honolulu Advertiser.

An “electronic press release? You mean, like an email that nobosy else has seen except you?
51 posted on Tue Aug 4 14:38:36 2009 by Polarik (Obama: When destroying America is not enough.)”

**It should be noted that when ‘Polarik’ confirmed he got the Press Release pdf sent to me from Okubo on the night of 7/27/09, which I uploaded for him especially on August 3, he then directed me to a story about Orly and the ‘Kenyan Birth Certificate’ that was dropped on us all in early August. As it turns out, he directed me to a distraction. We all remember the ‘crumpled ball’ photos saying we got punked? Eh?

I have my own understanding of what happened with ‘Polarik’ on August 4 and, therefore, that led me to question the person that gave ‘Polarik’ her claimed Hawaii COLB. This person approached me and in talking to her, she claimed to have a ‘Filed by Registrar’ COLB from Hawaii herself. It’s available online, often in conjunction with ‘Polarik’s’ stuff. This person also claimed that there was nothing unusual about the birth information contained within her alleged COLB–no amendments pending or otherwise, she told me, just a regular birth certificate. So I guess that blows that theory, huh?

Not so fast, I say. This COLB came out shortly after Obama released his COLB online, as I recall. It was used to get people focused on a possible forgery. Ha! It successfully distracted people from questioning too closely the words” ‘Filed by Registrar’ found on both COLBs. From the beginning. Imagine that?

I don’t know about you guys, but I have reason to suspect now that this person was mistaken, joshing with us, or received a COLB issued in error IF her story behind it is true and correct. Furthermore, a quick Google of her name indicated she was in Colorado–not Hawaii.

I can’t say for certain, but it appears that people are having fun at our expense. And these people link with other people we are trusting to help with this issue. The time to STOP relying on others is NOW. Seems no one is above suspicion these days. Be wary. Get answers from Hawaii or credible sources as I have. Do it yourselves.

INDEX DATA & WHAT IT MEANS

Although this data exists, it’s not relevant to move forward concerning the events of July 27, 2009, IMO. We KNOW the vital records used to verify the President’s Birth Place were insufficient on July 27, 2009.

We understand NOW.

Dr. Fukino, rightly tells us the vital records she saw were only on file, not on record. Unfortunately, Hawaii doesn’t offer any information on how to read a COLB nor do they use terminology that they are willing to explain–even when outright asked. As much as I worry if they are under some unfair pressure, I cannot help but think this is very disingenuous, indeed.

However, those of you interested in gathering the rest of the index data information that we are entitled to, might find this section useful. The ‘Index Data’ that Leo Donofrio reveals at his blog may be just a portion of the data that Hawaii has.

The information Leo received is likely incomplete and inclusive. Furthermore, the President’s name may be recorded on multiple ‘cards’ or recorded multiple times without the index data reflecting a change like ‘birth place.’ Please read the following and ask for ‘index data’ separately yourselves from Hawaii for a fuller picture. You will likely need to ask for each name ‘attached’ to his family and himself (e.g. Barry Soetoro). Make one request at a time or you may be directed to see the full record index in person for examination.

Send everything in separate e-mail requests to: janice.okubo@doh.hawaii.gov & chiyome.fukino@doh.hawaii.gov.

INDEX DATA (http://www.leg.state.nv.us/NRS/NRS-440.html#NRS440Sec280):
“NRS 440.160 Preservation and indexing of certificates. The State Registrar shall:
1. Arrange and permanently preserve the certificates in a systematic manner.
2. Prepare and maintain a comprehensive and continuous card index of all births and deaths registered. The cards must show the name of the child or the deceased, the place and date of birth or death and the number of the certificate. When a certificate of birth indicates that a person has changed his name, the card index must contain a card for each name.
[Part 18:199:1911; RL § 2969; NCL § 5252]—(NRS A 1960, 157; 1981, 464)”

RESOLUTIONS & CONCLUSIONS

By using Nevada as a reasonable comparison to Hawaii’s vital records/statistics policy and procedure, we are left wondering: was the President’s “natural-born” American citizenship and birth place verified using ‘original long form birth certificate information’, an ‘application to amend his birth place’ and ‘insufficient pending evidence of that amendment that was maintained on file at the DoH?’

If so, the information used is insufficient proof, unsubstantiated, unrecorded and suspect.

State government seems to have a higher standard than our own federal government when it comes to the integrity of recording vital events. For example, look how seriously the state of Kentucky takes registering true and correct birth information:

“The Vital Statistics 1999 Report Estimates approximately 324 births occurring outside a hospital setting.

That means that 324 birth certificates were filed by local registrars and midwives who interviewed the parents, gathered the information for the certificate, asked for evidence if necessary, and prepared the certificate. Whatever the reason, there will probably be a time, or several times, that you will be required to file a “home birth”.

The thought of it scares us. We have all heard the horror stories of how some have established new identities for imaginary babies. We don’t want to be the one that was duped into filing a fake birth certificate. But, it happens, and there are precautions we should take. [Emphasis mine.]

This section will assist the registrar in filing home births or births that did not occur in a hospital setting. All local registrars must require prenatal and postnatal documentation plus documentation of residency in your county at time of birth.”

http://chfs.ky.gov/NR/rdonlyres/8C9672A5-C25C-4C13-9E66-298D55C5FBAF/0/REGGUIDELINES112008.pdf

COINCIDENTAL & BIZARRE CONGRESSIONAL MOVES…OR NOT, shhhhhh…

On July 28th, did Congress sell out our Constitution with a Resolution that declared that President Obama was born in Hawaii on August 4, 1961? If so, was it inadvertent, on purpose, corruption or stupidity? All of the above? Who knows with that gang of thieves?

From FReeper ‘BP2’: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/bloggers/2351064/posts?page=28#28

“Looking at the dates of TerriK’s pre-release of Fukino’s written statement (July 27) and the PUBLIC release of Fukino’s written statement (July 28) seems to indicate a COORDINATED effort by the Hawaii Department of Health and Hawaii Congressmen in an attempt to “shut down” further questions of Obama’s eligibility.

As you may recall, there was a non-binding Resolution with the passage of H.RES.593 (House timeline on July 27) and S.RES.225 (Senate timeline on July 28) recognizing Hawaii’s 50th Anniversary as a US state. Also in the Resolution, among other things, was a clause that stated “the 44th President of the United States, Barack Obama, was born in Hawaii on August 4, 1961.” (House version text).”

Could Congress have provided the ‘evidence’ to amend the President’s Birth Place? If so, did Dr. Fukino answer my question HONESTLY on July 27, 2009 and with fifteen minutes to spare?

My question to Dr. Fukino, Director of the Department of Health on July 27, 2009:

“Is the Director of Health for the State of Hawai’i, along with the Registrar of Vital Statistics who has statutory authority to oversee and maintain these type of vital records, able to state they have verified that the Hawai’i State Department of Health has President Barack Obama’s AMENDED original birth certificate on record in accordance with state policies and procedures.[?]”

HER ANSWER TO ME RECEIVED AT 11:45 p.m., July 27, 2009:

“I, Dr. Chiyome Fukino, Director of the Hawaii State Department of Health, have seen the original vital records maintained on file by the Hawai‘i State Department of Health verifying Barack Hussein Obama was born in Hawai‘i and is a natural-born American citizen. I have nothing further to add to this statement or my original statement issued in October 2008 over eight months ago.“

Had Dr. Fukino had answered my question with a straight-forward answer and without the extraneous points about “..born in Hawai‘i and is a natural-born American citizen..,” it would have looked SOMETHING like this:

“I…have seen the original vital records maintained on file by the Hawai‘i State Department of Health…I have nothing further to add to this statement or my original statement issued in October 2008 over eight months ago.“

AND, we would have seen clearly that:

1.) There ARE amendments and submitted proof: “Vital Records” (plural)
2.) The vitals records are NOT “on record in accordance with state policies and procedures”
3.) The vitals records are NOT verified to be on record by the “Registrar of Vital Statistics”
4.) The vital records and proof offered to amend are insufficient for the State Registrar and, therefore, Fukino states they are “maintained on file.”

In other words, the support to amend his birth place is pending acceptance.

Furthermore, if we break her statement down further in context of the assertions made within, we see this:

“I…have seen the original vital records…verifying Barack Hussein Obama was born in Hawai‘i and is a natural-born American citizen…“

For most people it takes ONE (singular) ‘vital record,’ an ‘original long form birth certificate,’ to verify these two things. For our President, it took more than one.

These vital records ‘maintained on file’ had no evidential value it seems. They weren’t on record in accordance to policy and procedure with the State Registrar. They were possibly used by lazy or corrupt people to assure us, We the People, that our Constitution was being upheld by government and election workers and elected officials who made oaths to uphold the Constitution.

Games may have likely been played using terms like “natural-born American citizen” to distract us from the truth.

FOR ALL WE KNOW, President Obama’s application is headed right for the garbage can even with the non-binding resolution.

What are Hawaii’s standards for approving a filed application to amend/correct ‘birth place?’ I think we know that Congress hasn’t got any. I know what mine are. How about you?

There is only ONE TRUTH. Get answers from Hawaii. If need be, get answers from Congress.

We have the evidence now, without accessing the President’s birth files – 1.) Dr. Fukino’s 7/27/2009 statement and 2.) President Obama’s online COLB because both state clearly they refer to Files of NO EVIDENTIAL value…Files that are maintained, but not on record… Files that are proof of nothing…SLEIGHT OF HAND.

Thank you Dr. Fukino for showing President Obama what transparency means, what ‘Open Government’ means. What honesty means. And what being forthcoming as a leader in whom people place their trust means. You didn’t need to give us the last clue! You’ve done enough.

Where do we go from here? What watchdog will protect us now that we have the proof that we are being bamboozled by federal government leaders? What does it mean that Hawaii won’t or can’t release information on policy and procedure? Why can’t they tell us what their legal terms mean?

Please let me know what YOU think about how we should proceed…

And please spread this analysis FAR AND WIDE.

Thank you! MissTickly (aka TerriK)

As mentioned in the I.O. sidebar, the opinions expressed by those whose work is represented here, are their own. I.O. wishes to keep its mind open to numerous possibilities and recognizes that conflicts do ensue. The contributions of MissTickly are self-evident.

For further discussion, listen to Leo Donofrio on "The Awakening," today, Monday 10/8, 9-11pm ET,,, 6-8pm PT (and 4-6pm in Hawaii). Let the investigations go on....